I realize I am late to this thread. I want to state up front I am not overly sympathetic to the pro-choice side though I generally fall in the center to left on the political spectrum. My main concern with Roe being overturned is the downstream consequences for rights decided in a similar legal vein. All of that being said I don’t kno…
I realize I am late to this thread. I want to state up front I am not overly sympathetic to the pro-choice side though I generally fall in the center to left on the political spectrum. My main concern with Roe being overturned is the downstream consequences for rights decided in a similar legal vein. All of that being said I don’t know how pro-life people can be so aligned with the Republican Party. They describe poor people as “takers” and continually cut programs meant to help them. How can anyone be pro-life and not be for a robust social insurance safety net? In a way a progressive pro-life activist actually makes the most sense. I for one am willing to pay more taxes to fund these programs. Many don’t realize that the overturn of Roe will have immediate consequences for real people in need as we all (including myself) clack away on our opinions on the internet. The supposedly pro-life side has for years cut programs and stymied others at all levels and has done nothing to prepare for this moment. I say it again the word many on the right use for poor people in need is “takers” where is the compassion in that? Lest anyone think I’m a socialist I might add I’m open to any and all programs administered either federally or through the cherished federalism or public/private partnerships at the local level. I am not even religious but I want people to be taken care of and to have the opportunity for a good life, the pro-life crowd should want the same. At first I naively though this could lead to a realignment of formerly pro life people fighting for programs to help people as their main objective was achieved. Now I know it will just lead to state and federal legislative battles and no progress. People can’t see past their ideology anymore, they are just too selfish.
Republicans give more to charitable causes than Democrats. We don’t oppose safety nets, we just want them cast more narrowly because we believe humans flourish more when they are self sufficient.
I appreciate that. I do have a question for you. I am not passing judgement but for many decades (perhaps longer, I am mostly going off of my lifetime) people have been raised to be selfish. Abortion, is a selfish act, again not passing judgement, right or wrong it is just a fact that getting an abortion is about the person who is pregnant and no one else really. So why then, in a society taught it be individualistic and selfish, is abortion such a hot button issue? And sense it is, why can’t we then be less selfish in other areas of society if we now are going to be less selfish in this one? Instead it’s about what you can get for yourself in all other areas, it’s about tax cuts and having the government leave you alone and making money and being “successful” come hell or high water. I just have a hard time squaring the circles created by the current political system.
You really think the government is more responsible with our tax dollars than we are? How about you let me keep more of my tax dollars so I can choose where I donate them? You have a cynical view of people. I don’t think we are selfish, I derive great joy in my life by helping others…Big Sister, Meals on Wheels, befriending lonely old people, etc.
I give too and not just money but also time, and please note I didn’t say explicitly government I just said that is an option and it is only taken off the table by ideology. Also, a government that was truly accountable to the people would be responsible with our tax dollars but that requires ending gerrymandering and closed primaries for starters. The years of small government crusading haven’t led to smaller government I might add, it has just led to increased cynicism about it and corruption and lack of accountability within in it. And yeah I am cynical sorry for having come of age in the last decade watching all of the adults fail.
Thank you, I am genuinely asking from a place of good faith. I am 100% behind the idea of a more compassionate society, it’s been difficult to become an adult in the past decade, I know we have always had differences in our country and there have been contentious periods before but we always made it back before and it is becoming harder to see that as an outcome now, at least with our current political parties and all their respective baggage and animosities.
I agree and perhaps I am a bit too cynical. It is just hard when you see people try to maintain power over solving problems. Giving in to partisanship even at the citizen to citizen level. I take your points though and I think the thrust of your argument is right. It is frustrating when talking about the welfare of the people is now taken to mean progressivism or some type of socialism. Those words are literally in the preamble of our constitution and are in the constitutions of many states and carved into statehouses and government buildings all over the country. This combined with the egalitarian nature of the Declaration of Independence should be enough to make people realize that America is about the pursuit of happiness yes, but individual happiness, though important, does not supersede all else at all times. I get that the founding was not perfect either but the seed for a better society is there. Lately I’ve made the four freedoms of FDR my North Star: Freedom from want, Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Worship, and Freedom from Fear. If everyone would strive for those things for themselves and others than society would automatically improve. I think we pigeon hole ourselves too much with ideologies based on decadent political parties that are invested in keeping us divided for their own power. I have rambled a lot, to sum it up I am looking for aspirational leadership instead of the current grievance based system we have.
I would also like to add that while our system is free enterprise based that does not mean we can’t have a robust system of safety nets and with all the money sloshing around from our system there is more than enough to pay for it. I would also add conservatism is not the only ideology the extols the virtues of free enterprise. My plea for all, including you, is to read widely and deeply of history and current issues and seek out those you disagree with to hear them out. You will likely be surprised at what you find. I was, what I found is that the convenient narratives we are fed by both sides are just that, convenient narratives.
that there are valuable insights in all positions. And we cannot learn from the errors and successes of the past.
I read far left and far right material.
Each side is zealous and irrational,
but if you look deeper you will find that on particular important matters they CARE more than the rest of us.
They care so much they go nuts.
My brother is a Communist. His politics are vrazy, but he CARES more about the suffering of working people than anyone I have ever known. So I listen and learn from his caring.. And we have also found common ground on Ukraine
Am reading on the Spanish Civil War which has terrible parallels with where we could be headed if we do not pull together and build up the political center of our country. We can do this by making it our goal. Pull everyone we talk with toward the center. Find common ground with each and every person in our lives. This is how we save our country.
Thank you as well, it is important for people to have conversations like this even in such an unconventional format at this. We have to remember that what defines being an American is not blood but a set of beliefs that we all share. We have to remember that we are all human and want the same things out of life. No normal sane person wakes up wanting to stomp on someone else’s face, we have to have compassion in all things even when it is difficult. Most people in nearly any debate are not arguing from a place of evil.
I realize I am late to this thread. I want to state up front I am not overly sympathetic to the pro-choice side though I generally fall in the center to left on the political spectrum. My main concern with Roe being overturned is the downstream consequences for rights decided in a similar legal vein. All of that being said I don’t know how pro-life people can be so aligned with the Republican Party. They describe poor people as “takers” and continually cut programs meant to help them. How can anyone be pro-life and not be for a robust social insurance safety net? In a way a progressive pro-life activist actually makes the most sense. I for one am willing to pay more taxes to fund these programs. Many don’t realize that the overturn of Roe will have immediate consequences for real people in need as we all (including myself) clack away on our opinions on the internet. The supposedly pro-life side has for years cut programs and stymied others at all levels and has done nothing to prepare for this moment. I say it again the word many on the right use for poor people in need is “takers” where is the compassion in that? Lest anyone think I’m a socialist I might add I’m open to any and all programs administered either federally or through the cherished federalism or public/private partnerships at the local level. I am not even religious but I want people to be taken care of and to have the opportunity for a good life, the pro-life crowd should want the same. At first I naively though this could lead to a realignment of formerly pro life people fighting for programs to help people as their main objective was achieved. Now I know it will just lead to state and federal legislative battles and no progress. People can’t see past their ideology anymore, they are just too selfish.
Republicans give more to charitable causes than Democrats. We don’t oppose safety nets, we just want them cast more narrowly because we believe humans flourish more when they are self sufficient.
I don’t disagree with you about safety nets and flourishing. I will call into question your first statement which is explicitly partisan.
Not to worry about coming late
This party is always open
I find the views you offer here
very thoughtful and constructive
I like how you challenge pro life
people like me
Yes we need it
I appreciate that. I do have a question for you. I am not passing judgement but for many decades (perhaps longer, I am mostly going off of my lifetime) people have been raised to be selfish. Abortion, is a selfish act, again not passing judgement, right or wrong it is just a fact that getting an abortion is about the person who is pregnant and no one else really. So why then, in a society taught it be individualistic and selfish, is abortion such a hot button issue? And sense it is, why can’t we then be less selfish in other areas of society if we now are going to be less selfish in this one? Instead it’s about what you can get for yourself in all other areas, it’s about tax cuts and having the government leave you alone and making money and being “successful” come hell or high water. I just have a hard time squaring the circles created by the current political system.
You really think the government is more responsible with our tax dollars than we are? How about you let me keep more of my tax dollars so I can choose where I donate them? You have a cynical view of people. I don’t think we are selfish, I derive great joy in my life by helping others…Big Sister, Meals on Wheels, befriending lonely old people, etc.
I give too and not just money but also time, and please note I didn’t say explicitly government I just said that is an option and it is only taken off the table by ideology. Also, a government that was truly accountable to the people would be responsible with our tax dollars but that requires ending gerrymandering and closed primaries for starters. The years of small government crusading haven’t led to smaller government I might add, it has just led to increased cynicism about it and corruption and lack of accountability within in it. And yeah I am cynical sorry for having come of age in the last decade watching all of the adults fail.
great question David, thanks
let me ponder
and get back to you tomorrow
Thank you, I am genuinely asking from a place of good faith. I am 100% behind the idea of a more compassionate society, it’s been difficult to become an adult in the past decade, I know we have always had differences in our country and there have been contentious periods before but we always made it back before and it is becoming harder to see that as an outcome now, at least with our current political parties and all their respective baggage and animosities.
David, I hear you asking from a place of good faith.
I am deeply touched and honored that you asked me.
Thank you for your trust.
If you were truly a cynic
you would not have done it.
It grieves me that your experience of coming of age was, in your words, watching all the adults
fail.
Though I do not think
they did, I will go with your perception here.
Witnessing the failure
of all the adults
would give you nothing strong and hopeful
with which to identify.
No role models, no leaders you respect.
No examples of compassionate politics. You would surely feel abandoned and disheartened.
And it would be very difficult for you to even imagine
our country coming through and transcending this terribly contentious period we are now embattled in.
If I hear you correctly,
I think you are asking me: Where is the hope for building a compassionate society?
How can we rise above all our selfish ways via which we evade our responsibilities to be there for each other?
The core of my answer is:
it begins with your own
inner state of being.
You cannot control the path that others take.
If they are a disappointment you cannot change them.
You can never rely on others to give you hope.
Hope is something you nurture and cultivate and grow within yourself,
Yes you can look for leaders and people at any point in history who inspire you.
But it is up to you to decide
whether you yourself will be an inspiration.
Whether you will proceed through life as a light
that others love to see.
Or as a flickering wick that brings no glow to anyone.
You are young, David.
You can become a builder.
A builder of our more compassionate country.
But you must cast off all traces of cynicism.
It is a cancer.
Nothing good on earth
was EVER built by cynics.
If it was, it was IN SPITE
of their cynicism
not because of it.
Faith in others only comes when you first have faith in yourself.
It doesn't have to be religious faith.
Faith in your own goodness and compassion.
Faith in your own capacity to always seek the best in others, not the worst.
Faith in your capacity to find others who share your values, and to begin building real freedom
with them.
This site is full of good hearted people on both sides of our great divide.
We are drawing closer
as we share here.
This is a worthy endeavor
and proves there is hope.
We can inspire and support each other as we share our thoughts and feelings and ideas on moving forward.
Our country needs all of us builders now.
I hear the call.
You hear the call.
We are going to reach out into our communities,
find the gold in each other,
and never let go.
We will create and build political policies and programs that strengthen and support each other through thick and thin.
This is our America
and we are going to give it
a new birth of freedom.
I agree and perhaps I am a bit too cynical. It is just hard when you see people try to maintain power over solving problems. Giving in to partisanship even at the citizen to citizen level. I take your points though and I think the thrust of your argument is right. It is frustrating when talking about the welfare of the people is now taken to mean progressivism or some type of socialism. Those words are literally in the preamble of our constitution and are in the constitutions of many states and carved into statehouses and government buildings all over the country. This combined with the egalitarian nature of the Declaration of Independence should be enough to make people realize that America is about the pursuit of happiness yes, but individual happiness, though important, does not supersede all else at all times. I get that the founding was not perfect either but the seed for a better society is there. Lately I’ve made the four freedoms of FDR my North Star: Freedom from want, Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Worship, and Freedom from Fear. If everyone would strive for those things for themselves and others than society would automatically improve. I think we pigeon hole ourselves too much with ideologies based on decadent political parties that are invested in keeping us divided for their own power. I have rambled a lot, to sum it up I am looking for aspirational leadership instead of the current grievance based system we have.
David,
I find your words eloquent
and inspiring.
I don't know how to say
how impressed I am.
I see what you mean:
the foundations of a compassionate society are right there in our founding documents!!!
And enshrined throughout our country.
These are our bedrock American ideals.
They have nothing to do with progressivism or socialism!
Our free enterprise system is our economic foundation we will continue to build upon.
I believe you are right that aspirational leadership is what we need.
Now more than ever.
Yes, FDR was such a leader,
and his Four Freedoms are the essence.
You have chosen a wonderful North Star.
Thank you for sharing your beliefs
and ideals with me.
I am blessed and enriched.
I would also like to add that while our system is free enterprise based that does not mean we can’t have a robust system of safety nets and with all the money sloshing around from our system there is more than enough to pay for it. I would also add conservatism is not the only ideology the extols the virtues of free enterprise. My plea for all, including you, is to read widely and deeply of history and current issues and seek out those you disagree with to hear them out. You will likely be surprised at what you find. I was, what I found is that the convenient narratives we are fed by both sides are just that, convenient narratives.
Your plea to read widely is indeed the key,
Both current issues and history.
Without this we cannot possibly see
that there are valuable insights in all positions. And we cannot learn from the errors and successes of the past.
I read far left and far right material.
Each side is zealous and irrational,
but if you look deeper you will find that on particular important matters they CARE more than the rest of us.
They care so much they go nuts.
My brother is a Communist. His politics are vrazy, but he CARES more about the suffering of working people than anyone I have ever known. So I listen and learn from his caring.. And we have also found common ground on Ukraine
Am reading on the Spanish Civil War which has terrible parallels with where we could be headed if we do not pull together and build up the political center of our country. We can do this by making it our goal. Pull everyone we talk with toward the center. Find common ground with each and every person in our lives. This is how we save our country.
.
Thank you as well, it is important for people to have conversations like this even in such an unconventional format at this. We have to remember that what defines being an American is not blood but a set of beliefs that we all share. We have to remember that we are all human and want the same things out of life. No normal sane person wakes up wanting to stomp on someone else’s face, we have to have compassion in all things even when it is difficult. Most people in nearly any debate are not arguing from a place of evil.
Amen